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“I don’t understand the bars in Chiang Mai,” Xavier told me. Â “Every time I walk by, the women try to get me to come in. Â Why do you think it is like that?”
“Well, it could be three things,” I replied. Â “First, prostitutes. Â Second, ladyboys. Â Third, it could be like that scandal in Budapest where a woman has a guy buy her a drink and it turns out the drink costs $2,000 and then some scary men make you pay the whole bill.”
Xavier and I had met on the bus from Bangkok and discovered one of those amazing friendships that you can only have while traveling — within three hours, we had poured our hearts out and told each other our life stories! Â He was from Paris and spending a month in Thailand. Â Like me, he was at a major point of transition in his life and came to Thailand to heal before making some big life changes.
And — because so many of you have already asked — no, it was not romantic whatsoever! We were just buds, and that was perfect.
Another French friend of ours, whom I’ll call T, invited us to Number One Bar that night. Â This bar was in an area east of the old city, where young Thai women pair off with older Western men. Â You see this throughout Thailand and quite a bit in Chiang Mai, and it can be difficult to take.
It’s tough because I consider myself a sex-positive person. If two (or more) parties are happy in their arrangement, an arrangement that is both consensual and legal, I’m all for it.
For those seeking long-term relationships, I can understand completely. These men obviously don’t want a Western wife or girlfriend. Â They want someone young, pretty, and submissive. Â The women want financial security and an easier life. Â And few relationships don’t involve transactions of some kind, anyway.
But seeing it first-hand creeps me out nonetheless. Especially when the men talk to them like they’re children.
T was playing pool with a Thai girl, and Xavier and I joined in. Â After watching the interactions throughout the bar, I think I learned quite a bit:
How to flirt with a Western man:
- Wear short shorts and high heels.
- Have a girly cocktail and keep ordering him big bottles of Singha.
- Pretend to be horrible at pool, then be secretly awesome at it.
- Giggle incessantly before and after every shot.
- Fling yourself into his arms whenever pleased or embarrassed.
T was a good-looking 24-year-old guy. Â In fact, his girl was a few years older than him. Â I don’t know why he ended up in one of these bars. Â Maybe he just wanted an easy hookup.
At one point, another Thai girl joined us, I assume to put the moves on Xavier. Â Which I found strange. Â Although he and I weren’t a couple, most people assumed we were. Â Then I realized that I was the only Western woman in the bar and probably had no idea how things worked here. Yikes.
“Is she trying to seduce you?” I whispered to Xavier.
“She needs to try more hard,” he replied.
After endless rounds of pool, we decided to move elsewhere. Â We piled onto two motorbikes — Xavier and T on one, me and the girls on the other — and zoomed through the streets of Chiang Mai, our long hair whipping each other in the face, giggling like crazy.
We actually had a great night out, and the girls were a lot more fun than I originally thought. Â That said, I could tell that the girls thought I was the fifth wheel, so I excused myself around 1 and headed back to my guesthouse.
Do I still find this older Western man/young Thai woman culture creepy? Â Yes. But after seeing two twenty-something Thai girls go after two twenty-something French guys, much of it isn’t any different from what you’d see in your local bar on a Friday night.
I’m 52, white, in great shape and will be moving to Thailand in a few months to enjoy the beach and some Hot Thai ladies. After reading these comments, I’m rather perplexed. First, to the young guys who call the old men creepy-guess what-you’ll be there sooner than you think and I would hold off judging until you’ve reached middle age.
In terms of western women-I prefer to wear shorts and T-shirts and will hardly get a glance from younger women. I’ve done rather well in life financially, and when I have a function that requires an expensive suit, the women are all smiles and seductive,even much younger women. Same thing when I drive my expensive convertible versus my preferred 4 wheel drive beater. BTW, this is in the US. I used to live in LA and girls would throw themselves at perceived riches.
Sorry ladies, there’s something very negative in your comments that reveals some inadequacy.
I’m rich, good looking and will be holding hands with the most desirable attractive Thai lady I can find. If you stare at me or look repulsed, guess what, I won’t give a sh&t. I’ve married and dated American women and most let themselves go physically, carry an equally unattractive personality and expect everyone to kiss their asses. When they reach menopause in their mid 40’s all these inadequacies turn into high anxiety which results in boob jobs, face lifts and anti-depressants.
I suggest instead of judging, that you find your inner happiness. You’ll be getting old too and things will head South faster than you realize. See all the crazy things middle aged women do to try to be younger and you’ll soon be enlightened that men do their own crazy things. As long as each party is honest to their intentions, I’m OK with it. If it requires a little money changing hands, so what, I have extra.
I recently experienced the best holiday of my life spent mostly in Jomtien with an Is an girl exactly half my age.I’m athletic ,enjoy swimming and windsurfing and we enjoyed each others company imensely for 2 weeks .This is the closest thing to love I have experienced for more than a decade . We had sex exactly 3 times in 2 weeks and held hands all the time .I met her on Tinder . yes I gave her money . I thank God for these girls ..I think she saved my life .I hope I made hers a little better .I love you and think of you often P.
The guys from Oz and Germany in the hotel had the same deal with their Isan girls . This gave them company to chat and play with pool side . Even a few kids around . Where else in the world could these easy , simple relationships of affection , sex and dare I say , love , exist ? Sure , they are temporary but so was everything else in my 55 years . The west has squeezed out every ounce of joy from my miserable corporate existence .. This simple girl from the paddy fields and her million dollar smile is like rain in the desert . Go get them guys , but please treat them well , because THEY are worth it.
Old, unattractive western men with young, pretty, Thai ‘girlfriends’ are exploiting socioeconomic imbalances, plain and simple. If this were not the case, middle-class or wealthy, educated Thai women with well paying jobs would also be interested in these men “for better sex” or “because they respect their elders” or whatever ridiculous excuses men like Dave put forward. Dave posits that “many don’t have other opportunities” as evidence that the women are in the sex trade voluntarily; how is it voluntary when they don’t have other opportunities?
You’re wrong, some middle-class Thai, Filipina and other asian women are interested in some of these men. And they often do meet up and have relationships and even marriage. The problem often is in simply finding each other.
I’m 65 and even in the US middleclass Filipinas try to “introducee me to their friends and relatives both in the US and back overseas who are decades younger than me, usuall25-35. Now why would these women want to “exploit” their own relatives or friends? Because, it’s not exploitation but mutually beneficial.
But then, I’m not fat and unattractive and look very young for my age. Now you can categorize men who go to asia for sex tourism as all being fat and unattractive and losers if you want. But the fact of the matter is most people are losers in life. Most people are not attractive, either. These days, most people are fat, about 80% as a matter of fact and even asians are getting fat.
I’m sorry but that is reality. I have a great physique and the fact of the matter is there is a vanishing small percent of women even within 20 yrs. of my age that are on a similar level of physical fitness/attractiveness. And most of these women will be married. So I essentially have to go much younger even if I am just looking for parity, much less to find someone who is better looking.
But even if this were NOT the case, and I was unattractive, etc. why should I not be able to enjoy sex with a young attractive female? I’m quite sure your views on sex are quite different than mine! I believe sex is fine as a sensual MASSAGE, with not other agenda or implications. If I have the money why should I go to a fat ugly or old sexual masseuse?
Money has always been able to buy the finer things in life (although not necessarily the very best things in life such as health, love, etc.). This is how the world works, always has and always will. Women have always valued money and security. It is THEIR preference even far outside the confines of poverty. So who is exploiting who here?
Furthermore, I can’t tell you how many decent guys get ripped off by asian women who lie through their teeth with the single objective of getting as much money as possible from foreign men. Again, who is exploiting who? Of course it is a two way street with some of these men using the women and not caring one iota about them.
But contrary to documentaries on sex tourism etc., most of what I have seen is something of a peaceful middle ground, i.e. a beneficial arrangement for both the men and women in short term relationships. Generally, smiles all around, yes exactly that and yes, sometimes with drama, but in general a fair and pleasant arrangement. My experience and the experience of my friends is so different than what I have seen on these sex documentaries, it’s the difference between night and day. What a joke, but I don’t deny sexual slavery, kidnapping, and a whole list of horrors do occur. But horrendous things happen under the umbrella of marriage as well.
In summary, it’s an error to generalize about the relationships between asian women and foreign men. In any advent the relationships between asian women and asian men is not with out exploitation (on both sides) either. As a matter of fact, young women often exploit older men. And so and so etc. etc.
You speak of ‘parity’ in a very shallow sense of the word – as if all ppearance is not only what is most important to you but as if it is also results in equality. You are fooling yourself if you think that there isn’t a pragmatic reason why women half your age are with you – why would they be willing to be with someone who will die 20 or 30 years before them? The answer is that they prioritize your economic value and your company is just what it takes for them to survive when they have no other options. As far as middle class Philippinos or Thai women go, might some of them not just be looking for a visa? And are they truly equal or close to equal on a per capita basis? In the majority of cases, both parties are using the other, but one out of necessity and the other due to their reluctance or inability to find a partner of equal socioeconomic status and age, even given equal levels of attractiveness, and a lack of qualms about taking advantage of women who are forces into the sexiest tourism industry due to lack of options. Of course it is their job to make you think they want you and are enjoying themselves, and clearly many men are well fooled by this act, but if you think that any, at least any more than a statistically insignificant minority, are sex workers because they enjoy it, then you know nothing about women and even less about the varying levels of privilege between women and men and developed and less developed countries. Good for the women who take advantage of men who prey on them (aka leaving them feeling like they did not get their money’s worth) this at least brings the scales a little closer to balance, though balance is still very far away.
Well, your gender bias is obvious when you make statements like “Good for the women who take advantage of men who prey on them”…if you wish to favor one side in the so called gender war, that is your decision, but I favor the individual not the sex or race. In other words, I would defend a woman who was mistreated by a man of my own race/nationality, etc.
And as a matter of fact I have called out guys who were joking and laughing about how they tricked a Filipina. Almost kicked them off a bus until they shut up! That said, I have had other Filipinas confide in me how they tricked guys – both asian and caucasian.
Yeah, it’s a war out there but still there are kind people on both sides. Not everyone is planning on a visa…but how ironic you brought that up. I knew a filipina in New Zealand who thought I wanted to marry her so I could become a NZ resident! Had no such plans, but oh, the irony!
Regarding your query as to why younger women stay with me or other men like me there’s a whole gamut of reasons. I’ve had girls who simply love fuking and if you don’t think they exist you are nuts!
Of course, nost of the so called bar girls want money first and good sex second, but if you don’t think many enjoy a good fuk you are sexist yourself. Both men and women enjoy good sex or even half way decent good sex. It is not easy to fuk a girl if she doesn’t want sex and is not excited enough for it.
Of course many women will give false compiments to men. Hey don’t you think that works both ways?
Women lie and men lie, news flash.
There will never be across the board equality in the world. Some people will be more attractive, some ugly and most just average. Ditto for talent, personality, and money. These factors are not just there for short term sex and short term boyfriend:girlfriend relationships, they are there for marriage as well. And in my opinion, the natural human condition is serial monogamy. And/or serial promiscuity esp. for males. It is normal and natural, but rather it is the church and religious groups that have tried to convince people this is immoral. i don’t get my moral compass from religion, they are wrong on so many things, arguably, one would do better to go in the opposite direction!
Now let’s look at exploitation a bit more. If you go to Cherry Blossoms or similar sites, I would argue most of the men using those sites are looking for love not sex.Yes, there are sex sites such as adult friend finder, etc. I would also argue that a very high percentage of the asian women on CB, and similar dating sites are seeking to manipulate/exploit the men there. Not all, but a higher percentage of women are there for manipulation than vice versa.
And you’re happy about this? Well, I’m not and equally, I’m not happy when men lie and trick women.
I try to tell the truth as much as possible and it’s not easy, esp. in Thailand and the Phlippines where truth is an endangered species on the verge of extinction.
Now for many, any type of transaction is a zero sum game, meaning for them to win, the other person has to lose. This is the mentality of a true loser. In sales, in relationships, or whatever, I prefer win-win and I always try to make my partner happy they met me and there are many ways to do that besides money, although I don’t deny money makes the world go around. But is also a huge factor in marriage, which therefore, is arguably a variety of long term prostitution esp. when love is not there (often the case!).
Now if you want to use the term exploitation in all these matters, then you surely should be using it for asian employers who pay both men and women a pittance for long hours of hard work not just in Thailand and the Philippines, but around the world. Men and women who are have higher IQs and better education or better skills or better talent get paid more. So go tell them they should stop exploiting their workers but from what I’ve seen in the bar scene in asia, the girls are damn mad when their bar closes shop for one reason or another; and I’ve never seen a bar girl forced into this type of work. Of course they wouldn’t choose it if they were rich, just as their friends woudn’t choose working in a street shopl if they were rich. Or extremely talented, etc.
Being curious, I am interested in the women I meet and what they really think and feel. On many levels, one never knows where the truth is; but arguably, it is often to be found at the independent intersection of lies. It is a lie to suggest women don’t exploit men as well as vice versa of course and it is also a lie to suggest women don’t enjoy sex even when money is involved.
It just depends on the the persons, so stop generalizing and stereotyping, it’s the same mistake racists and sexists make. And to that list we should add ageism…if such a word exists. Quit trying to define normal, it’s at best only a statistical probability. Exceptions from the normal are not bad, if anything they should be applauded. I’m proud have a young body and a young mind at my age. It won’t last forever, but it’s been wonderful.
When I’m dead – and we will ALL be dead soon enough – at least I lived and I’m glad I knew a lot of different women not to mention the thousand and one adventures. Stay in shape and be a nice person…my .02…
What exactly is it you are defending? The rights of men to pay women for sex? And are you calling me sexist for defending women’s rights? In a male-dominated commodity driven world, it is so great to see someone like yourself defending rich white men from tricksy filipina women! And how generous you are in giving sex workers a good fu*k! Because, as you say, after the money, that’s what they’re in it for, and of course they wouldn’t have the option of doing it for free with men their own age if they wanted to, and of course this is totally unrelated to otherwise having to work on a farm for 12 hours a day and their families not having enough food, if this is what you mean when you say they wouldn’t do it if they were ‘rich.’ Also, how narrow minded of me not to consider individuals when we live in a world where the highly unequal distribution of wealth and power on an international scale, and between men and women, induces poor women to become prostitutes. How strange that the United nations would generalize and stereotype so much as to have created an entity devoted solely to the advancement of women’s rights! They have clearly fallen into the same sexist and racist trap that I have. Your propensity for fu*king thai women is clearly changing everything. It is entirely outside of the statistically probable ‘normal’ state of the world in which women are less likely to go to school, don’t earn even half of what men earn on average globally, and are the victims of sex trafficking, child marriage, genital mutilation, and honour killings. The world health organization reports that over one third of women globally have experience physical and/or sexual violence. But of course, that ‘normal’ is nothing more than a statistic, which is something you obviously care little about. It is very evident that you neither know nor care to know much about the world outside of your own narrow experience and superficial self interest. Please spare me any more of the anecdotes which you somehow think have more authority than fact, and for gods sake no one gives two sh*ts about your fitness level.
You clearly read my comments with a huge chip on you shoulder. For starters, I clearly said I defended filipinas against white guys who are making fun of ripping them off (para 2). I doubt anyone could be more women’s rights than me. It’s almost an insult that I feel I need to make statements about this, because of course women should have equal rights, ditto for racial rights and similar.
Yes, sure men should be able to pay for sex and sure women should be able to sell sex. As I have written elsewhere, this is a fact of marriage as well; just extended over a longer period of time.
Additionally, I don’t feel marriage has proved it’s value given the divorce statistics worldwide. I also don’t see why you would conclude I’m not disgusted by physical or sexual violence toward women. Or men for that matter.
About physical fitness, yes I’m on a campaign. 90% of Americans and Australians are fat, I just find it disgusting and their brains are weak as well. And get rid of the chip on you shoulder it clearly is warping your view of what was written vs. what you think I wrote. I’m right in the exact middle of the men vs. women war. I favour both sides and can only hope they both calm down a little. In these matters, it does seem to be Western women who are the most pissed. Hey, happy interpenetration for all. Ditto for black on white, vice versa and all potential racial, ethnic and age combinations.
It is a cold cold orbit we are on, take your best gambits at doing what makes you the least lonely even if is far from Romeo & Juliet, the play.
Dave, never argue with someone who throws statistics at you. Callista, you should be more civil, at least Dave responds despite you correlating his behavior to honor killings and genital mutilation.
Well, where do I start!
As someone who has lived in Bangkok for a protracted period and also recently spent some time in the Philippines I feel that I have an opinion that has some merit.
My first and most overiding point is that the vast majority of the opinions written here are single minded and while not necessarily uniformed are certainly taken from the viewpoint of a western based social bias.
Let’s start with the whole older western men taking advantage of younger Asian women issue. First and foremost this is being taken from the completely wrong perspective in terms of validity, what everyone seems to be missing is that these relationships are exactly quasi prostitution relationships. Therefore just in the west you would expect the customer to have a certain amount of latitude in his (or for that matter her, taking previous examples of Turkey into account) behaviour, western prostitutes act exactly the same way, the only difference being that they are paid better for their time.
I have seen both sides of this coin and witnessed the fools with their money all too willing to spend it on the girl who they think loves them, whilst not taking the reality away from the fantasy! Not only is this a consistent outcome, it’s one that the girls themselves actively seek, there is nothing better for them than this scenario and the reason for that is simple, they are working and more money for less work is something everyone can get on board with.
Now the problem so many of the women here have is that really you are arguing against open prostitution and not social dynamics.
And here is where you trully are being, for want of a better phrase, up your own arses. You try telling your average Thai prostitute, quasi or not, that she cannot practice her ways and she would likely rip your hair out and the reason for this is simple, they choose to do it! They make better salaries than a doctor in Thailand on average. Stop making this an argument about how western men are taking advantage and start seeing the real picture, its the girls providing a service who are in the driving seat not the other way round.
What you are all missing is the obvious essence of your point, of course these men go to Thailand, they can’t get what they want at the right price in their own countries and Thailand provides the service for a fee and often that fee is far more than the punter expected.
You see loser men are loser men wherever they happen to be in the world. What you consider in your western outlook to be loser might be different, perhaps old, perhaps shy, perhaps ugly, but the universal truth remains the same. And loser men will be taken advantage of by women far more than women will be taken advantage of by loser men, whether it be in Thailand or anywhere else.
By contrast men who are good with women in the west are even more advantaged in Asia and again I feel this is the basis for many of the female comments placed here, as I have often commented to friends in Bangkok, I feel sorry for western girls there for now you are in a position where you are not in fact as valued as you were in your home country and being that we are all sexual beings this naturally leads to you feeling underwhelmed. Sure you love the country, but really are you getting regular sex with the guy you want!
My viewpoint is simple if you want equality stay in the west, if you have a problem with prostitution in any form don’t got to Thailand, but please don’t get on your high horses and declare the realities of the country you are visiting as offensive simply because they don’t meet your standards of what is right and wrong, you are in their country, if they accept it so should you!
Marcus, I’m in basic agreement with your comments and while you wrote at length I’d just add a few points. The first is that the sex angle declines in importance the longer the relationship, at least for most.
I’d also add that marriage and “partnerships” in the West are very much a form of prostitution, just over a longer period of time than a night, a week, or a month.
we, thai women, are not interested in any western men. The first group of woman the western men got from our thailand were the lowest prositute class, not thai normal girls, until Europe, USA and other asian countries misunderstand that every thai woman is a prostitute. In fact, only lowest class of people who are jobless become prostitutes. There are both rich and poor people in Thailand. As times advaces, some western men can get our thai normal girls who, however, divorced women, not at all virgin ones.
The reason why western men cannot attract the eyes of our thai women is because they are from a different race. Western men can attract only the women of their own race, not other races. Their look is like a monster in the world of Thai women. We cannot appreciate which part of western men’s body is good. We thai women reject western men at first sight. That is why western men can get only trash women from us.
As someone who lives in Thailand, what you say has different perspectives. Firstly, very, very many Thai girls like western physical features. They admire western girls with western noses, pale skin, blue eyes, blonde hair. Many times I have heard Thai girls talk about how they admire such physical features ” I wish I like she” sais a Thai girl wiggling her nose whilst looking at a photo of a 17 year old blue eyed girl model in a magazine. Often, in any country, the nicest girls are those from a countryside area who have had a simple life. Find a girl from an upper class background with lots of money and often, she will have less than a nice personality. The girls who work in bars in tourist areas are often nice personality fun girls. The ones you describe, who are not interested in western men, well that type of girl exists in western countries also. They are usually difficult, self oppionionated, moody, and generally a pain in the neck. The way things are, everyone is happy. Western men who are looking for a Thai girl who is pretty and a nice person is not dissapointed, and Thai men can get upper class, self opinionated, awkward, moody, pain in the neck type girls. One thing I have noticed very much is that when you go through a shopping mall in Thailand, you only ever see very pretty Thai girls with very young Thai boys in short trousers, never with Thai men. You see pretty Thai girls with young Thai school boys and with Western men, not with Thai men. Why not, if so many of them like Thai men?
we, thai women, are not interested in any western men. The first group of woman the western men got from our thailand were the lowest prositute class, not thai normal girls, until Europe, USA and other asian countries misunderstand that every thai woman is a prostitute. In fact, only lowest class of people who are jobless become prostitutes. There are both rich and poor people in Thailand. As times advaces, some western men can get our thai normal girls who, however, divorced women, not at all virgin ones.
The reason why western men cannot attract the eyes of our thai women is because they are from a different race. Western men can attract only the women of their own race, not other races. Their look is like a monster in the world of Thai women. We cannot appreciate which part of western men’s body is good. We thai women reject western men at first sight. That is why western men can get only trash women from us.
Tuk…well, I had a g.f. with the same name. I rescued her when she fell into rough seas in Hawaii and got bashed on the rocks. Took her to the best dentist I could find. Helped restore her ever present smile…
I will agree with you on this…most people by hard standards are somewhat ugly. I don’t care if it is white, black, asian or whatever. That is especially true after their youth is gone. Just go to any consumer store and look around. Where are the beautiful people over age 40? Rare, indeed.
Unfortunately, as is all too common, their inner selves are often even uglier. And the worst ugliness is to shove one’s bile around spreading even more ugliness and negativity in the world.
In reply to Tuk’s comments:
You are displaying an attitude that is common in Thailand and one of the reasons that I choose to leave, you see Thai’s are inherently quite a racist people, you very much believe in the superiority of your race! This does not apply to all Thai’s and is becoming less of an issue even in the higher classes but it very much exists!
Your point’s however Tuk are quite ridiculous, when I lived in Bangkok my girlfriend was Middle Class, of light skin, spoke exceptionally good English and while I often paid when we went out, as this is appropriate in Thai society, she often paid as well. I would say the split was 60% me, 40% her. She required absolutely no financial assistance from me and in fact wanted to try to have me added to her business for a work permit so that I could stay indefinitely in Thailand. Does this sound like the relationship that exists between a white man who is of no interest to Thai women except toilet scum, does this sound like there are no good Thai women who have an interest Western men?
Your attitude seems to be one of anger, perhaps you have seen things that entitle you to such beliefs but perhaps also there are some very strong hatreds in you about the women of your own country. If you and the other higher classes so object to the actions of the lower classes perhaps it would be more appropriate to channel that into creating a better quality of life for all, rather than vilifying. In the West we have people who are rich and people who are poor however we do not consider the poor people to be of the ‘prostitute class’ and to suggest such a thing would be considered unbelievably offensive. We also have a more enlightened approach to women who are not virgins as to be honest it is of really no relevance whatsoever, if someone has had sex before.
If you are married, my guess is that you are all too familiar with the Thai concepts of mistresses and second wives that Thai men have and are accepted by their Thai wives. Concepts definitely not shared in the West.
If you are not married and are yourself a ‘virgin’ which you seem to be proclaiming as a virtue, then perhaps this is the source of your anger and you should just go out and have some fun.
Either way as Dave said, your current approach is a very ugly one and displays both racism and superiority values against the lower classes. Not to mention sexist, I notice that you didn’t say anything about Western women not being beautiful and how could you with the significant advertising in Thailand that holds Western female beauty in such high regard!
I am sure that most of these people have long since moved on with their opinions and biases, which we all have, whether we admit it or not, but my one thought is that most of these people and or the types of relationships that are being exploited here, whether old or young, all seem to be socially connected to bars and those types of establishments or areas where drinking and party type people tend to gravitate towards. I mean how many people go to bars to meet their future dream husband or wife. What is it that you expect to see here?
These folks would be like minded people who are happy with those types of relationships and enjoy those forms of activities. Personally I don’t venture into bars and have not for 20 plus years, not that I don’t mind a good tasting cold beer once in a while, but it would be the last place I would ever look for a wife, girlfriend, or even short term girlfriend.
Personally age differences are something I find younger Western generations build barriers around more than anywhere else in the world I have travelled. Those who are more comfortable and less concerned as to what others may think are more confident people in my opinion, worrying much less about what others think, because really they should be minding their own business and worrying less about other people’s choices.
So for those who go to watch the show and share their opinions I am sure you could find better places to have a drink of whatever you prefer, but going to these different locations does make for more interesting stories.
When we talk about our opinions on creepiness; well there really is a lot of different types of creepiness just about everywhere on this planet. You choose whether you want to be around it, or them, or not, and our biases can lead us down an opinionated trail that can at times wrongfully place others in a bad light in some cases. There are good and bad people everywhere.
Personally my wife is 28 years younger than I am and we have a very warm, beautiful relationship, and honestly what the rest of the world thinks is not that important to us. We are happy and we love sharing our time together travelling, quietly reading our books, watching movies, hiking, biking, or riding our motorcycles on twisty roads in just about any venue. We are as normal as I could imagine, so for those who are culturally biased to think there is something wrong with our happy relationship due to our age difference, well that is your opinion. I only wish that one day you find a relationship as happy and healthy as ours whether there is an age difference or whether you happen to be the same age. May you wake each morning feeling like you and your heart are where they need to be. Happy travels!
I’ll take this on. Seems like a reasoned reply. But I disagree with an implied premise that is all too common. Namely, long relationships are better than short ones. I don’t accept this as a good fit for many people. For starters, let’s talk about divorce rates. In many parts of the world such such as the USA over half of marriages end in divorce. One can be fairly sure in these situations the divorce just didn’t happen overnight but often was preceded by years of misery for both sides. Divorces are hugely expensive and can ruin a man’s planned wealth and retirement. Yes, it can do the same for women.
In these dead end long term relationships each side may wonder “how could I have made a worse mistake?” when their youth is gone, spent on one person who simply did not pan out.
Compare this to a more liberal relationship philosophy from the angle of single males. In this situation the end result may be essential the same (alone, but usually in better finances). However, at least the male has had the company and sexual enjoyment of more women, probably better and more varied sex, and the fun of knowing and being with many women of different personalities. Often such men also have many travel adventures with short term girlfriends and longer term girlfriends as well. In short, a better sex-love life over a longer period of time. Yes, I’m not blind to the argument that the best sex is with a women you truly love and blah blah it lasts how long? OK, sometimes for life, right? The only problem, it is a huge gamble with bad odds. I would be unlikely to risk much money, much less half of my life on a gamble with failure odds of over 50 percent!
Life is not an end result as many in the Western World seem to think, but in the “now” of living. In this replyy, I am just bringing up this topic vs. fully developing it. In essence as it really requires a book to cover completey. I’m just saying arguably such a life choice has enabled these men to be more alive with many more pleasant “nows” than the “nows” of a monogamous marriage that ends up being hugely expensive and psychologically damaging.
As far as meeting women in bars, I also don’t agree with the premise that bar girls are worthless sluts. I’ve met some very interesting women as well as some bright women in bars. Some of these women were kind and somewhat innocent. Of course, there are bitches and women who are seeking solely to extract as much money as possible. In general, I would agree this is not the place to look for a longer term relationship, but I’d also point out that going to the mall and even universities, books stores, etc. is a low percentage endeavor. However people meet and get married in the USA, etc. (introductions, in school, on vacation, whatever) is not exactly a recipe for success at least based on divorce rates.
Now let me address the subject of money for sex. I am in favor of it. That said, I don’t argue it is ideal. The reason I’m in favor of it is that there is not a dotted line on my body separating different parts or zones. Is it not OK for people to get massages because they make the muscles feel good as well as one’s mood and sense of well being? Then, why, is not the same true for genitals? Again, I don’t see a dotted line that suddenly makes that area off limits between adults of legal age.
I’ll tell you the problem here. The problem is religion and the outrageous attempts at making sex play only for husband and wife and morally wrong for anyone else. This is the stupidity of religion. Nature knows better and almost is begging men and women to use their sex organs – and not just for procreation but for relaxation, enjoyment, and to maintain their function.
Nature is so smart about this that it has enabled people to pleasure themselves if necessary. No surprise some religions even consider this to be terrible sin. What a joke. Abstainers are likely to not only be find sex less satisfactory with a parrner, but tend to suffer various health issues later in life as well – and specifically related to the fact of poor genital health related to low use or even nonuse. Of course, there are medical risks in promiscuous sex, but I’m just pointing out ALL our organs are meant to be used.
I’m happy for the stereotypical marriage that preserves the family unit and all ends well until one dies surrounded by family and friends. Unfortunately reality is that things often don’t end that well.
Single persons may end life hopefully surrounded by family and friends as well and perhaps with a content mind of a life fully lived in all manner of relationships including loves.
Take your best shot at a happy and full life. I don’t argue my philosophy should be yours. I’m happy for people whose marriages have worked. And I’m sorry for people who sought only sex when maybe they should have been looking for that ideal partner that maybe they would have found. There are many possible outcomes as a result of one’s philosophy on these matters as well as plain luck, good and bad. Just be mindful of society and religion’s omnipresent attempts at controlling and indoctrinating people for their ends not necessarily yours.
Hi kate,
Love your blog..really hate some of the crap you are getting though usually from males. I think it is wonderful that you have a JOB that you love and enjoy. Working hard is an overrated doctrine perpetuated by Western governments for taxation income!
I am a lawyer and have seen first hand what happens to self righteous workaholics. Fortunately I too have seen the light and through the you must work your life away doctrine. It is apparent that these males are threatened by a strong independent intelligent woman like yourself.
So don’t let it bother you and keep travelling….
If you love what you do, it’s never work. And the more you go go go the better you can realise your potential. However, I will agree the vast majority of works suks and it’s ez to waste one’s limited allotted time doing meaningless work.
As far as “males being threatened by a strong independent woman” that may be accurate for some (think Middle East/radical Muslims), but the sad fact is far too many women have mush for brains – ditto for a lot of men, of course!
The chief complaint for many men who opt for Asian women is the lack of feminine qualities in many American, etc. women. Most straight men are not going to be attracted to women with masculine attributes whether personal or physical. Look at the reverse situation, how many women are going to be attracted to effeminate men?
One last unrelated note, some of these posts are out of order…
the girl above is not the real thai, but thaitified dark woman with african look. thailand is a land thatiifed by the white thai race minority from the north of the world.
the west still fails to identify the look of the girls of the real thai race. the girl above is dark thaitified woman, not the real thai race.
why burmese soldiers never go to pattaya? because the prostitutes there are not the thai race, but thaitifed dark skinned women who speak a different dialect from the native thai language of the white thai king. USA knows nothing about asia.
Things that I have noticed about Thai people are the following:
1. They have little interest in their own history before the current dynasty of kings, which is seen as irrelevant.
2. They have virtually no interest in even recent history of adjacent countries, although very up to date with world current affairs.
3. They have no wish to consider that parts of their culture came from other areas, like India, or China, or the Kmer empire. The mixing of cultures and people has happened in every country. It is a fact.
4. They have no wish to learn about the different ethnic cultures that have evolved into the modern Thai race. Ask most Thais about the Black Thais ( Thai Dam ) and they don’t know what you are talking about.
5. Some people from Central Thailand ( a minority ) get rather angry if they hear someone speak a language of Thailand, which is not the official Thai language. Most however, do like the idea of knowledge of the other languages.
If you think that the true Thai race is limited to those people only in Central Thailand, then this would seem to be a very narrow minded attitude
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What about love??
Why men look for a asian wife…maybe because in our westend society the concept of family had changed..values are not important..Divorced is high…
thailand girls love and care for their family…they only look for a good husband that they treat them with respect..
the true, for love is not age at soon are understanding and respect for each other..
I have just one comment. I think it is unfortunate that you use the term “these men” to generalize all middle aged white men in Thailand. Whether they are with a younger woman or not, you really know nothing about each individual circumstance. While there may be many white men dating younger Thai women, I am personally offended that you group all of “us” together. I have learned with my “age” not to do that. I actually came to Thailand to experience the spiritual and cultural aspect of the country as well as the natural beauty. Again, I recommend you not generalize about a group, any group, as that is almost always offensive to someone. I have been traveling for many years. I am in my 50’s (maybe someday you will be too). I hope no one ever categorizes and STEREOYPES you just because you are an “older” woman. You must consider the effects of your words on EVERYONE who reads it. Is it offensive to anyone?…If the answer is “yes,” then maybe it is best not to say. And, by the way, if these “older” men you speak of are not harming you, or anyone (but maybe themselves), why do you care?
Kate thank you!
You’re the perfect example why white men go to Thailand…
Althought whats even more annoying then dealing with feminists in north america, is seeing their eye rolls and eye brows raised when they come to thailand.
Kate, men and women of similar age seems to be important to you… typical feminist literature. I’m not old… but when I’m older… I do want some hot young girls on a plater that I can taste like a desert… go tell that to your friends. Thank you god for thailand.. where the sex is so easily available and independent women as soo very few!
the girl in this picture above is considered ugly with african look in thais’ eyes. dark looking like a daugter of a farmer. not from the thai high society. she looks more malay rather than real thai ethic., and i am a thai girl.
foreign men who are most popular among middle class thai teenagers especially in the capital city are korean, japanese, and chinese.
Y dont you all keep your self appointed superior noses out of everyone else s business
So men are attracted to cute young fit girls, and young girls like older men with money. Newsflash: it ain’t just that way in Thailand! Even men back at home generally prefer younger girls. And even back home, girls prefer men with flashy cars.
The thing is, most people have been socially conditioned, in their home countries, to frame relationships separated by “many years” as “creepy”, when there is really nothing negative about it. The socially accepted view, of course, is based on antiquated Puritanical morality systems–the same ones that demand that men marry virgins and save sex for marriage.
I’ll tell you this. Even many of the younger girls here are starting to show a lot more interest in older men. Too many young guys here are barely male at all! Metros.
The older women here ( thirty and up), mostly seem to have a chip on their shoulders or worse have the sexual habits of a rabbit. Or both.
Few of these self-styled “emancipated,” women can deal with or maintain a relationship with, a real red-blooded American male!
It’s these women who are afraid of men that are more intelligent, and financially independent than they are.
Bitch or no bitch, I want an intelligent, open minded, curious, good hearted woman. One that’s more interested in my happiness and health than I am. Because I feel the same way about her.
Thank goodness I found mine 25 years ago!
Most of these gals here today are so totally self- serving, and self-interested, that it’s disgusting! They use this, modern, enlightened feminist B.S. to cover up and redirect this truth.
That’s why there are so many cougars, they have made themselves unsuitable as mates to their equals. Now they’re divorced, and looking for exactly what they accuse men of doing. Looking for submissive, dependant young mates to prop up their egos!
Arguably it’s still a better situation for the girls as compared to being with a Thai guy, and they see it that way too. Ask the girls and they’ll tell you Thai men have a reputation for infidelity, alcoholism, short tempers, not treating women as equals, and for impregnating girls then leaving without taking responsibility.
So as creepy as the old white guy – young Thai girl dynamic might appear, it’s necessitated by a lack of alternatives. There aren’t that many educated, responsible young Thai guys around for all of them.
Also if you think this is common in Thailand, you should see the Philippines 🙂 It’s much more prevalent.
As a man who lives in Thailand, and more generally, just as a man, I get very sick of so many people being nasty and abusive about men who like attractive young women, who themselves, happen to be older. So many times throughout my life I have listened to younger men talk about using girls they pick up in nightclubs for their own satisfaction and treating them little better than a piece of meat. Yet, if a man who is older is seen with a young attractive woman, even if he is a nice person, warm hearted and with a conscience, he is the one who is looked down upon and treated to torrents of verbal abuse for what he is doing. It sickens me. Girls who work in bars in Thailand, yes, they are focused upon getting financial rewards. However, they have certain character traits that are admirable. 1. They mostly prefer a male who is a nice person, over one who is not, or who is obsessed with their own looks. 2. They are feminine and not loud, not overly dominant with overbearing opinions, don’t act like boisterous drunken men, as do so many western young women these days. When you see a pretty feminine Thai girl with a guy of around 45 or 50, often the guy is quite a nice person, and the Thai girl sees that, and for many, they prefer that over someone not like that, but who happens to be a pretty boy. It seems as if these days, there is a hatred of middle aged men, which seems to be socially acceptable. Thai girls would never think of being nasty and rude to a man who speaks to them in a nice and polite way. I have lost count of the times that I have suffered verbal abuse for doing the same with western girls, because I happen to have lived longer.
The above comment is not overstated. Where ever you go these days, spiteful nasty comments are made about the unacceptability of older men who like attractive young adult women. I have been in situations in the UK where attractive young women have made efforts to gain my attention and I have overheard them in frustrated conversations with their female friends ” I,ve tried everything I can think of. I don,t know what else to try. Maybe be is gay?” And why did I just smile and walk away ? Because of the level of hatred and animosity and negativity shown towards men who are older who do not have a leaning towards attractive young women. It is to such an extent that it affects your own behaviour. In the 1930,s there was antisemitism, in the 1970,s there was racial hatred. Both were accepted norms within society. Today there is the same towards older men. It,s disgusting.
Just a short reply, I have enjoyed reading this. I am a long time visitor to Thailand searching for company whilst there. Some background for you I am 39 over weight and rarely approached by western women. Initially I thought it was all about the sex and feeling the empower . But I can assure everyone this is a miss guided reflection and an opinion based on stigma. The reasons that most western men of all ages go to Thailand in search of there soulmate is company. Pure and simple. Once you realize this it becomes a game changer. I have taken several ladys from bars on the same evening, purely for company. No sexual activity required or expected. The myths of over powering them, is not necessary required. It is as written earlier in the topic. Similar to any country to have a good time with someone there has to be a connection. If the feeling is not it will surely end in a terrible time. As for the talking to then like children. You only have to take them girls tin pin bowling and see that they are in fact like children. They gigle laugh and its like Christmas to them. But I hear and see some not many guys treat these Thai girls with little or no respect and I can say they do not red or have as good a time as us that do treat with respect and have a common bond. All be it short lasting or long lasting the bond is something that has to be present to allow for a great time.
Kate You think the old men are creepy but the real creeps are the young women who would not be with these men if they couldn’t get money from them. You see old men and young girls but you don’t see both of her hands in his pocket. You see this all over the world if you are a man, it’s all about the money and women will take all they can grab.
You tend to get a little righteous in some of your posts but I will tell you we humans are all the same, down deep, we are all creeps.
Great thread, with my favorite posts being from noisyflute and Kath B — between the two of them they nailed a boatload of points.
In the end I think this needs to get down to the granular, case by case. Basically, when you and I have a relationship, we either make each other’s lives (happiness) better, or not. If not, one or both of us is being “creepy”. If so, we’re doing OK.
And even though this discussion centers aroundThailand, it seems clear that western culture is being questioned here (indirectly) as well; a culture where a very large number of people”s basic needs for love and intimacy are being persistently and systematically quashed, to the point where even people who escape to find some kind of relief are attacked for it. Ideally, western culture could be examined and tweaked so that the need to escape was not so compelling.
I dont mind these relationships either. I’m in Phuket now, heading for Chiang Mai. Phuket… it’s just disgusting – all of it. I just wanted to add, i was in egypt a few weeks ago. You see a lot of similar relationsship like in Thailand. It’s just disturbed old women/ young egyptians instead of creepy (?) old men / young thai girls. Desperate people hook up for different reasons. I dont care. But it’s insulting to the eye nonetheless – but so can be many things.
Disheartened by the denial and mysogyny displayed here in the comments by western men.
No wonder such men have to come to Thailand to buy a relationship..whether that be sexual or romantic…they are exploitative individuals and that is unattractive to Western women who have more options and thus do not want them.
One word: yuck.